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Forgiving Pitino

The buzz around the Big Blue Nation the last few days has been all about a long-time equipment manager tragically departed and a former coach who went to Kentucky's #1 rival.

What a strange story.  It is the story of a humble man who labored, for the most part, in anonymity far behind the scenes at Kentucky basketball.  Eventually, his longevity in the position led to him being recognized for what he truly was, despite the blue-collar nature of his employment -- an integral and critical part of the Kentucky program, and a major contributor to its success.

But it is also the story of a brash New Yorker who stormed into Lexington to be crowned the King of the Bluegrass, and even after the nadir of Kentucky's Shame made the seemingly impudent promise, "We will win, and we will win right away."  When Kentucky did win right away, despite being left with a team that might not have been able to win at most Division II schools, a legend was born.  This young New Yorker was also an indispensable part of Kentucky's resurrection and success, delivering one championship banner to Rupp Arena's hallowed rafters and nearly delivering a second the very next year.  That same cocky young man left the Kentucky job eight years later to chase the siren's song of earning millions restoring one of the NBA's great programs, only this time he did not succeed.  His failure lead him back to Kentucky, to take over the main rival of the Wildcats, be branded a traitor, and earn the visceral loathing of many UK fans.

Thursday, Rick Pitino gave a requiem for Bill Keightley.  If you haven't seen it at Kentucky Sports Radio (or others), the UK website has a transcript here.  It was moving and elicited strong emotions from the Big Blue Faithful.  It was also a fitting tribute to Keightley from a man Coach Pitino always considered a friend, even after he took over the reigns of a basketball team Mr. Keightley transparently detested (in the competitive sense only, I'm sure).  Coach Pitino's commentary was completely fitting for the moment, and drew accolades around the state from Kentucky fans and media types alike, as well as calls for fans of the Big Blue to forgive Rick Pitino the unforgivable transgression he made against Kentucky fans -- leading our most bitter rival into battle against us.

While Mr. Keightley's passing was the occasion, this article is not about that.  I have said my goodbyes to Mr. Wildcat, and I will never watch another Kentucky game that I do not see him there at the head of the bench.  This story is about the rift between Rick Pitino and the Big Blue Nation, and an examination of the love/hate relationship that has developed there.  It is fitting and right that we look at this issue, because Bill Keightley had to face it much more often and more forcefully than any of us did, and thus his passing presents the perfect opportunity for commentary.  Here was a man who's undisguised loathing of the Cardinals was legendary, yet who's affection for the coach of that program was able to withstand even that most deadly of insults.  Mr. Keightley came to terms with the fact that his friend had, in a way, betrayed the team he loved and dedicated most of his adult life to.  The term "betrayal" is certainly a bit strong to describe the relationship in question, since coaching a rival team is certainly not on par, in a real sense, with what we generally consider "betrayal" to mean.  But when we consider the extraordinary passion this state has for basketball, "betrayal" is as apt a description as any.

Personally, I have no animus toward Rick Pitino.  He is a fine coach and a good man, as far as I know.  I have listened to his talks, and he is an outstanding motivational speaker.  Of all the coaches Kentucky has had in my life, he is by far the most eloquent and persuasive, and loves to get in front of a crowd.  He has no fear of words, and no fear of failure before thousands or even millions.  I have no doubt whatever that Pitino meant every word he spoke about Bill Keightley, and that every single emotion expressed in his speech was completely heartfelt and genuine.  Keightley and Pitino were friends, and that friendship did not end when they became members of a rivalry as bitter as any in sports.

I have also not forgotten that Rick Pitino coached Kentucky to a national championship in 1996, and to the national finals the following year.  But for an unfortunate injury to Derrick Anderson, I believe Pitino would have delivered two national championship banners to Rupp Arena's rafters instead of just one.  He was and is a great coach, and despite protestations to the contrary, represents the archetype for most Kentucky fans of what the UK coach should be -- fast-paced basketball, eloquent off the court, great recruiter and nationally respected.  The fact that he now coaches a team almost universally despised by Kentucky fans is an intolerable provocation, and it is entirely understandable that many Kentucky fans have come to detest Pitino almost as much as the program he coaches.

So unlike John Clay, whom I deeply respect, Matt Jones and other well-intended calls for everyone to let bygones be bygones, I will not join them.  Bill Keightley was a personal friend of Pitino, and friendships mean a lot more than fan-coach relationships.  It is laudable and entirely praiseworthy that Mr. Wildcat was able to overcome his partisanship, but it is another thing to ask a fan, who knew Pitino only by his coaching and public utterances, to do so.  Even though I admire Coach Pitino's accomplishments as a coach and a man, and am duly impressed with his wonderful remarks for Bill Keightley, I have no lens of personal friendship through which to view him.  While I am pleased and thankful for his contribution to the Big Blue Nation's mourning of Mr. Wildcat's passing, Pitino didn't make his remarks for me, or for any other Kentucky fans -- he made them for his friend, Bill Keightley.  That is right, and just, and as it should be.

In the final analysis, I appreciate the warm feelings many have for Coach Pitino's comments at Mr. Wildcat's memorial.  The words were moving, and touching, and delivered with complete honesty.  But what Rick Pitino represents to Kentucky fans is anathema -- a former beloved Kentucky coach who is helping a bitter rival to the detriment of the Wildcats.  Make no mistake, those two things are completely intertwined -- anything that raises Louisville men's basketball up also drags Kentucky men's basketball down -- that is how rivalries work.  They work that way in recruiting, and in national perception, and in competition for championships and games.  Should we give Pitino some love because of his wonderful comments about Mr. Wildcat?  You bet, and I have and will continue to do so.  But will I cheer for Rick Pitino, or his Cardinal team?  Well, look at it this way: in my ledger of equities, we have one moment of kindness toward a dear friend plus eight years of successfully coaching Kentucky to set against leaving Kentucky for greed, glory and eventual failure plus resurfacing in the college ranks to coach at Kentucky's most bitter rival.

On my balance sheet, the numbers come up red every time.

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Forgiving Pitino
Come on Tru, give it a rest. Let's have some perspective.  The game of life trumps the game of basketball.  If Mr. Keightley loved Rick Pitino, I will accept his judgement of character and say that Wildcat fans need to accept him too.  Rick is a human being with good characteristics and flaws too.  He deserves our applause, and more.  

by westh on Apr 5, 2008 2:07 PM EDT   0 recs

I can appreciate that ...
and I do applaud him for his kindness on behalf of Bill Keightley, and his service to Kentucky.

But he is the Louisville coach.  I have no more love for him in that capacity than I do for the entire Louisville program.  I'm sorry if that bothers you, but that's the way I feel.

by Truzenzuzex on Apr 5, 2008 3:47 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Forgiving Pitino
Was it just me or did seeing Rick with the Kentucky Pin on his coat seem a little warm and wierd at the same time? He made a mistake leaving UK and I think he knows that.I personally have moved on from it. I`ve often wondered how the Big Blue Faithful would have reacted to him going to another rival such as Indiana or Tenn. Would there have been bitter feelings to the degree that we see now? Or would it have been less. I want UK to beat anyone and everyone,so I consider ANY school on the schedule as a rival.So, unless he went and coached a high school or a lower Division School,UK fans would be upset with him and some will be able to let it go and some won`t.

by String Music on Apr 5, 2008 3:00 PM EDT   0 recs

Louisville and Pitino
When two powerful and top schools are locate in the same state, it helps both of them.  Pitino is helping Kentucky by having a good team at Louisville.  We will always be rated higher and accepted as the top of the basketball pyramid, but Louisville having a good team helps us by bringing attention to the state of basketball in Kentucky.  I never could get worked up about Pitino or even Tubby for that matter.  It takes more energy than I have.  Billy G is our coach and he may well prove to be the best one since Rupp.

by oldkentucky on Apr 5, 2008 3:21 PM EDT   0 recs

Strongly Disagree
How does UL being good help UK? "Louisvile having a good team helps us by bringing attention to the state of basketball in Kentucky."

Not really. When UL makes the Elite 8 and UK loses in the first round it only highlights the chasm that exists in the health of each program.

UL being good just adds another school UK has to recruit against to get the best athletes. Take a look at the two football programs; since UK has enjoyed success the last few years they have become a recruiting force in Jefferson County, as well as having near carte blanche throughout the state.

In my opinion, the idea that the "attention" UL brings to the state is good for UK is flawed in every conceivable way.

The absolute best thing that could happen for UK is that UL drops basketball and football. I know that will never happen, so the next best thing is for the Cards to stink up the joint on a yearly basis.

by Ken Howlett on Apr 5, 2008 3:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm afraid ...
I can't agree that Pitino's success at Louisville helps UK.  Maybe non-partisans would think it's better for the state of Kentucky to have two great basketball schools instead of one, but I'm afraid I am not that sort.

by Truzenzuzex on Apr 5, 2008 3:50 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I believe that Louisville doing well is an
attribute to the entire state. I have bled blue for many, many years and live and die with this team, but I want Louisville, Western, Murray State and even Campbellsville College (did I leave anyone out?) to make a good showing every time out. In my mind this showcases the entire state as the basketball capital of the world. Of course I want UK on the top of that heap; that goes without saying. But, I won't ever cheer against a Kentucky team unless same team is playing UK. However, I accept that reasonable people can disagree respectfully, and I offer my comments here as simply my opinion. I respect the opinion of all other members of the forum and most especially the blog's author (Tru). BTW, to the poster that commented on the pin Coach Pitino wore, I believe that is a special pin designed in Mr. Wildcat's honor.

by bluegrassgal on Apr 5, 2008 4:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Great comment ...
I respect the opinion of everyone, even the rare fan that likes Louisville and Kentucky equally (yes, I know a few of those).

I really appreciate posters who respectfully disagree.  That is what this blog is all about.

by Truzenzuzex on Apr 5, 2008 6:42 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Louisville
Tennessee or Florida being good teams helps Kentucky, because we are in the same conference. It makes the SEC look good, and since much of our season is determined by our conference play, if we beat good teams we are better for it but if we lose we just got beat by a good team.

Not the same for Louisville. It does not benefit us whatsoever if they are good. As many others have posted, it hurts us for recruiting and it takes attention from UK and places it on UofL. The argument has not logic. Do you think Alabama football fans are happy that Auburn is a good team and has beaten them the last 5 meetings. Living in AL right now, I can mot assuredly say that is not true. Do you think Tennessee is cheering Memphis right now? My guess is no. I could go on.

I will say that I respect everyone's opinion, and if you claim to have equal love for UK & UofL, then so be it. I think you are misguided, but I have nothing against you.

by jug on Apr 6, 2008 12:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

NC
Duke hates NC
NC hates Duke

It will always be a war between them. Collectively the state gets attention and their collective brands make one large recruiting bug zapper. Once they hit the state, the two can go to war to get them to sign.

I see the same in Kentucky. We will always hate them and they us BUT collectively it is huge is both are good. The Game is bigger each year and more kids watch it.

Recently we have only tussled a few times for recruits really as Pitino heads a little more north and BCG is going west more and more.

I hate the whole state of NC (basketball. Actually love the state)and Puke and NC getting all the love. I want it focused here. UK, UL, WKU. Screw NC.

by wilson452 on Apr 7, 2008 11:43 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He seems to regret it
When Pitino went to Louisville, I certainly shared in many of the Wildcat faithful's extreme displeasure.  But I think things are different now.

It's one thing coaching for Louisville and turning your nose down at Kentucky.  It's another thing to miss the place you used to call home and regret leaving.  When Pitino first took the Louisville job, I think it was the former.  Now, after some time I am sure he regrets it and misses UK.

Believing that, I can't be mad at him any more than I can be mad at Pelphrey for coaching Arkansas.  I think either of them would be coaching the Wildcats if they could, so I can't slight them because they're not.

I do think Mr. Keightly taught us a lesson though, we should appreciate Pitino for what he did here.  Despite making some bad choices, he did us proud enough to hang his "jersey" in Rupp, so he's a member of the Kentucky family in my book, and we should treat him as such.

by EEWildcat on Apr 5, 2008 3:27 PM EDT   0 recs

When he is no longer the Louisville coach ...
I will welcome him back to the Kentucky family.

:-)

by Truzenzuzex on Apr 5, 2008 3:51 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Couldn't Agree More!
Nothing against Pitino, but I can't cheer for him as long as he is Louisville's coach.  Once he has retired or left that position I will again cheer for him and welcome him back into the Kentucky Family.  The banner he hung in 1996 more than warrants that.
C....A....T....S CATS CATS CATS

by MartinGolf9 on Apr 7, 2008 11:54 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Lasting impressions
I have never had the pleasure of meeting Coach Pitino so I have impressions from afar. I was upset with his manner of leaving Kentucky. He was discussing his book on Charlie Rose, saying he had the best job-the most money he ever made-the biggest house he ever owned- in the town he loved so he was going nowhere. Three days later he was gone. Then I was upset with his choice of a rival of Kentucky as his next college job. I have always felt and believed he had other choices. A quick google for March 2001 (forgive any errors) shows Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana, Texas Tech, U Mas. U of Denver, Idaho, Wake Forest, UNLV, Kent State, Xavier and Butler hired within the time frame he took the Louisville job. He might not have taken some of these positions but many competitive and named schools are on this list. I always felt it was the "in your face" choice he made. Still do.

He also is not a native from Kentucky and I think he was of the mistaken impression that Louisville as a school "is in Kentucky".  I think he underestimated his own feelings and connection to Kentucky.

I give him credit for his appearance and his comments to his old friend. Sorry....he stays on my list.

by CAWebb on Apr 5, 2008 5:32 PM EDT   0 recs

Michigan and Vegas were....
...strongly considered by Pitino.

I've read numersous articles that stated that he was ready to take the Michigan job, but Jurich called.

I've also read that his wife is the one who told him he was crazy for not taking the UL job because of the anticipated reaction of the UK fans. Paraphrasing here; you're going to not take the UL job because once every two years you have to visit Rupp Arena?

If I remember correctly he wasn't super interested in the UNLV opening because he wasn't crazy about living in Las Vegas.

Personally, I feel he made the right career call. But that doesn't mean I have to like it, or him.

by Ken Howlett on Apr 5, 2008 5:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Ken, I totally agree
with this:

"Personally, I feel he made the right career call. But that doesn't mean I have to like it, or him."

I don't begrudge him his choice to go to Louisville, and even find it rather flattering that he liked Kentucky so much that he couldn't stay away.  But that doesn't mean I have to like him...in a "rivalry" sense.  It isn't personal.  I by no means dislike the man personally--how could I, I don't even know him--but I don't buy that it somehow makes UK fans vindictive that they root against him extra-hard now. He's too smart a man not to have known what he was doing when he took the Louisville job.  He knew better than anyone how passionate we are about basketball, and how we'd view him taking up with our biggest rival.  He had a decision to make and he made it, and I also believe it was likely the RIGHT decision--he did what he felt was best for his career and for his family, and had to take the consequence of knowing that Kentucky fans will forevermore call him "traitor" and boo him at every opportunity.

Rivalry is just part of sport--and a FUN part to boot!--and I don't see how it's in any way "mean" for UK fans to root against Pitino/U of L.  Are Red Sox fans "mean" by booing Johnny Damon?  I don't think so.  Damon gets paid millions, and surely is man enough to take that booing as the part of the job that it is.  If there were no hated rivalries, sport would be far less interesting.  Pitino's a big boy, I'm pretty sure he doesn't spend a lot of time curled up weeping over the fact that, gasp, sometimes people boo him!

He was a great, great coach for us for sure, but I also don't buy that we are obligated to be "grateful" to him for winning here.  I certainly appreciate the way he did his job, but that's what it was--a JOB for which he was incredibly well compensated, both in money and in adoration.  It wasn't a charity mission he did out of the goodness of his heart.  And neither was it a one-way street--UK was pretty damn good for Rick Pitino too.

So, yes, I really did appreciate hearing Pitino's rather moving comments at Mr. Keightley's service.  And yes, it is laudable that Mr. Keightley kept his close relationship with his friend even after he took the Louisville position.  And no, I don't hold any hard feelings against Pitino the person.  But Pitino the basketball coach?  HIM I will continue to root against because it's a RIVALRY.

One more thing:  like bluegrassgal, I also believe that Lousivlle being good does not hurt, and actually ultimately helps Kentucky basketball.  God knows I never actually want them to win any specific game, but I do believe that in theory, the stronger we both are, the more Kentucky (the state) can hold down our rightful spot among the top basketball hotbeds in the country.  Think of Duke and Carolina:  to me, they have a symbiotic relationship.  The success of one only elevates the success of the other, as they're so joined together in the public eye.  Their rivalry, so trumpeted by ESPN as it is, is interesting only because both are strong, and it benefits BOTH of them to have such a well-publicized clash.  People who barely know anything about basketball have heard of their their rivalry and watch their games against each other.  Certainly, it's sickening when Louisville is markedly better than we are, as was the case this past year.  But in the big picture, I think it does both programs a world of good to be part of a healthy, competitive, headline-garnering rivalry--and that only happens when both programs are strong.

by blue kentucky girl on Apr 5, 2008 7:23 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You don't have to like him..
but you should love the man.  He entered UK under the banner or "Kentucky Shame" and he left UK as the dominate program and it has never been the same since he left.  HE EARNED ALL UK FANS' RESPECT AND PRAISE.  Now, may Pitino and UL lose 20 games next year...

by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 5, 2008 7:33 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Pitino should be praised...
He took UK from shame to glory; from the butt of jokes to envy of all programs.  He delivered two championships.  If you dislike Pitino and cannot forgive him, then you should loath Tubby Smith.  Afterall, who was better for the program?  Pitino left UK at top and Tubby left UK is a very bad spot.  

by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 5, 2008 5:55 PM EDT   0 recs

Uh oh....
I think you just called out FortyYear......

by BigSkyCat on Apr 5, 2008 6:10 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Maybe so..
but to hate, despise, etc. the coach who brought UK from shame to glory and left the program as the #1 program in college basketball is childish.  Who cares he is at UL, at least it sparked a rivalry that had lost its luster.

I have been a UK fan nearly 30 years and it is things like the "Pitino hate" that embarass me as a UK fan.  I wouldn't blame Pitino for shouting out, "UK, I delivered you championships, recruited the best players, handed a championship to Tubby and led UK's program with dignity and honor.  If that is not enough, than you can kiss my cardnial red arse!"  Get over it my Big Blue brethren, Pitino EARNED our praise.  Sutton and Tubby certainly did not.

by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 5, 2008 7:04 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I Don't Hate Pitino
I just don't hate Tubby like you and many others do.

by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 5, 2008 8:29 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I love Tubby
he is an honorable man and a good coach.

by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 5, 2008 8:38 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

1990-97 Or 1998-2007
UK had 2nd Most W and 4th Most NCAA W in 1990-97 timeframe. Kansas had more W. Duke, UNC, Arkansas had more NCAA W.

UK had 4th Most W and 4th Most NCAA W in 1998-2007 timeframe. Duke, Kansas, UConn had more W. Duke, UConn, Mich St had more NCAA W.

2nd, 4th or 4th, 4th.

Both seem pretty near the top to me.

The facts:

KEEPING ELITE COMPANY

Top (men's) Div I college basketball programs during the last 10 years (1998 thru 2007) are:

  1. Duke 302-53 and 28-9 NCAA
  2. Kansas 276-72 and 20-10 NCAA
  3. Connecticut 264-78 and 25-6 NCAA
  4. Kentucky 263-83 and 23-9 NCAA
  5. Gonzaga 263-69 and 12-9 NCAA
  6. Illinois 249-90 and 16-9 NCAA
  7. Florida 248-86 and 22-7 NCAA
  8. Syracuse 248-92 and 13-7 NCAA
  9. Arizona 246-80 and 18-10 NCAA
  10. Michigan St. 245-92 and 24-9 NCAA

by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 5, 2008 8:28 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

So?
and other than the championship Tubby won with Pitino's players and the prgram Pitino built, Tubby did not make it to a Final Four, much less win a championship.

Comparing Tubby to Pitino is like comparing Switzer to Jimmy Johnson, it is laughable.

Here is how meaningless your stats are; Gonzaga is ranked higher than Florida yet we all know that they pale in comparison to Florida.  # of wins in a season is the most meaningless statistic in sports.

by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 5, 2008 8:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Florida Excelled In 2006 And 2007
But not from 1998 through 2005.

I showed 2 stats. You ignored NCAA W.

Duke 28, UCOnn 25, Mich St 24, UK 23, Fla 22 (NCAA W) in those 10 seasons.

Tubby averages 72% career and 69% NCAA games.
Pitino averages 73% career and 74% NCAA games.

Tubby has 9 career Sweet 16 appearances.
Pitino has 8 career Sweet 16 appearances.

Each has 1 NCAA title.

by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 5, 2008 8:41 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes, but...
I was and still am crazy about Tubby.  I was very, very sad when he left.  I think he's not only a great person, but a fine basketball coach very capable of winning here at a high level.  HOWEVER...

To compare his time here and Pitino's time here strictly by the numbers like this surely doesn't begin to tell the whole story, as the program was in truly awful shape when Pitino arrived, and was in great shape when Tubby came.  It is impossible for me, the Smith fan that I am, to see how his reign could be considered as successful as Pitino's.  

At the same time...as illogical as it seems, Pitino probably DID have the more beneficial position to enter--to come in when expectations were much lower, and then to exceed them wildly.  He could do no wrong after that.  The position Tubby walked into was unenviable and nearly no-win: to come in when the program was on a historic high and expectations were through the roof--it was inevitable that it would slip eventually to some degree, no matter who was coaching, Pitino, Tubby, or whoever.  

Bottom line, in my opinion both are fine coaches who did well by our program, but it is difficult indeed to make a convincing case that Tubby was as successful as Pitino was.

by blue kentucky girl on Apr 5, 2008 8:59 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Didn't Do That
Compared 1990-97 UK/Pitino with all other Div I teams. (2nd most W, 4th most NCAA W)

Compared 1998-2007 UK/Tubby with all other Div I teams. (4th most W, 4th most NCAA W)

Compared Pitino/Tubby career (not just UK) records overall and NCAA tourney results.

Adolph Rupp never came close to his 1948, 49, 51 results (3 NCAA titles in 4 years) the next 20 years at UK.

by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 5, 2008 9:08 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

blue kentucky girl
Once again, very well "said". Damn girl, you're on a roll.

by Ken Howlett on Apr 5, 2008 9:24 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

UK Coaches
Rupp won SEC in 3rd year (1st year of SEC existenced) and "NC" (Helms Trophy, no NCAA or NIT back then) in 3rd year, too.

Hall won SEC in 1st year and made FF in 3rd year but NC in 6th year.

Sutton won SEC in 1st year. Elite 8 in 1st year.

Pitino "won" SEC (best W-L record but ineligible) in 2nd year. Won SECT in 3rd year and made FF in 4th year but NC in 7th year.

Tubby won SEC, SECT, made FF, and won NC in 1st year.

All 5 prior UK coaches had great success within 3 years. Pitino did what they did, in a similar timeframe.

by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 5, 2008 9:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Meaningful statistics..
Tubby took Pitino's team and won with them.  After that he was inable to make it to a Final Four, much less win a championship.  Anyway you slice it, Tubby is a good coach who can win games during the regular season but has proven incapable of taking his teams to the Final Four.  Pitino is by far a superior coach and arguing against that is futile.

by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 6, 2008 8:14 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Heh
"Pitino is by far a superior coach and arguing against that is futile."

You must be new here. ;)

by EEWildcat on Apr 6, 2008 8:44 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Tubby Beat Pitino 4 Of 6 (From 2002 Through 2007)
How would an inferior coach beat a better one 2x out of 3?

Pitino's team left in 1996 and 1997. No full-time starters remained. No All-SEC players remained. No double digit (10+ ppg) scorers remained. 6 of the 1998 Wildcats did play college basketball AT ALL in 1997.

Tubby has 29 W in NCAA and 9 career Sweet 16.
Pitino has 35 W in NCAA and 8 career Sweet 16.

Pitino had 22 NCAA W and 17 SECT W at UK.
Tubby had 23 NCAA W and 20 SECT W at UK.

Pitino has won 73% of his career games.
Tubby has won 72% of his career games.

Both have won 1 NCAA title. Tubby has won 7 conference titles. Pitino has won 4 conference titles.

by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 6, 2008 8:55 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

true
but what the stats can't say (and what blue kentucky girl said above) is that they came to UK when the program was going in opposite directions. you have to factor that in, and just listing numbers doesn't do that.
GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!

by UKWildCatFanatic on Apr 6, 2008 11:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

UK In 1996 & 97 Than 2006 & 2007
UK recruiting was NR in 96 and 97. UK landed Top 15 class in 06 and Top 10 class in 07.

Pitino 81% overall and 81% NCAA.
Tubby 76% overall and 72% NCAA.
UK 76% all-time and 69% NCAA.

by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 7, 2008 6:55 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Tubby...
never reached a Final Four with his one of HIS teams, could only do it with Pitino's team.  Pitino reached the Final Four multiple times and with three different teams..  Tubby is a good coach, of course he cannot take a team to the Final Four, but he is a good coach.. but face it, Pitino is one of the all time greats, a superstar coach who I am sure Tubby himself idolizes.

by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 7, 2008 8:33 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

huh?
i said they started in opposite situations, not ended. and you're talking about recruiting, while i was talking about the team and the program.

pitino got a program in probation, while tubby got a team coming off two straight championship appearances.

and since you just listed data, and added nothing else, let's see if i get this right. you're saying tubby was a better recruiter than pitino, since we had two top 15 classes to end the tubby era and two NR classes to end the pitino era.

the thing is that i'm sure at some point you've posted numbers that show that how high your recruiting rank is doesn't always mean success. just take a look at UK's '04s...weren't they the #1 class? so your numbers here mean very little.

GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!

by UKWildCatFanatic on Apr 7, 2008 10:16 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Typical..
of Tubby apologists.

To try to equate the success of a coach who has taken THREE different programs to the Final Four to a coach who in 20 years has never taken a team he recruited to the Final Four is absurd.  

Pitino is a superstar, hall-of-fame coach who Tubby owes his fame,success and the millions of $ he stole from UK to.  

by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 7, 2008 11:17 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Alright ...
This is getting a bit too heated here.

Keep the discussion respectful, please.  Let's not brand Smith a thief or start assailing others as apologists.  Everyone has a right to his/her opinion, and of course others have a right to disagree.

But let's keep the discussion respectful of each other's person and opinions.

by Truzenzuzex on Apr 7, 2008 11:30 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Interesting...
you would react to my post like this, yet the 40yrcatfan can lie about Pitino / Ivy and it gets a pass...

Hell, it is your blog, so you can do as you want with it, but that come across very hypocritical.

I will never be respectful of lies.

by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 7, 2008 11:37 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Lie? Hypocrisy?
C'mon, I can't see where he lied,a nd I am certainly not being hypocritical about anything.

Are his figures wrong?  If so, correct him, but lies  require a deliberate attempt to deceive.  I don't see that.  Something can be factually incorrect without being a lie.

But even if what you said was literally true instead of just a difference of opinion, he didn't suggest Pitino was a thief or a liar or or anything else.  You called Smith a thief and now you are calling 40yr a liar.  Those are not the kind of words one uses in polite disagreement.

by Truzenzuzex on Apr 7, 2008 2:22 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Nailed it shut and danced on the lid
Blue Girl, you nailed it shut and danced on the lid.
In fairness to 40, I think he is defining "success" strictly by the numbers. As you say, the numbers don't tell the whole story - like the unreal streak of bad luck Tubby had in recent years, or the NBA-jumpers, etc.
Funny how some people can spew such hateful stuff and then claim to respect the person they just crapped all over - and the team that person represented so well for so long.
Well reasoned and well written! thanks!

by Way2blue4SorryFairWeatherFew on Apr 7, 2008 8:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The golden era...
I went to the memorial the other evening and I was totally touched by Rick's words not only about Mr. Wildcat but it seemed to me an offering of peace to the program.

I miss him on the sideline and a part of me was hurt that he was in the building and not our coach.  He's a great spinner and he deserves the approbation of Slick Rick but then there is the part of him he shares with all of us who frequent the page;  he also has a passion for the game, nearly an obsession and it is there that the Yankee from the big city and the rest of us in Kentucky can find a common ground.  

He brought us our second Golden Era, those of us who weren't old enough for Rupp will be telling our kids of sitting in Rupp Arena and watching the '93 or '96 team.  He is responsible for that bit of joy and for that I will never begrudge him for taking the Louisville job.  We may never see another Golden Era in our lifetime but we do have the memories of his teams.

by trich on Apr 5, 2008 6:47 PM EDT   0 recs

Way off base Truzenzuzex..
First of all, "anything that raises Louisville men's basketball up also drags Kentucky men's basketball down -- that is how rivalries work" is completely absurd.  Competition makes one stronger, it is a good thing.  Pitino at UL has actually brought excitement to a rivalry UK was dominating and that had become very stale.

Also, to say Pitino "leaving Kentucky for greed, glory and eventual failure" is again absurd.  He was already wealthy, he reached the pinacle of college basketball coaching and positioned UK as the dominate program.  There was no better time to leave UK.  You should thank Pitino for the way he left UK.  I hope he NEVER wins a championship at UL, but I thank him for being UK's white night.

This whole hate Pitino, despise Pitino, calling him traitor Pitno is childish.. time to get over it and time to move on Big Blue Nation.

by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 5, 2008 7:30 PM EDT   0 recs

Interesting point of view
You wrote: "Competition makes one stronger, it is a good thing."

I couldn't agree more....but UK already has plenty of competition in UT, Florida, Arkansas Miss. St. and the other SEC teams. Along with Duke, UNC, Kansas, and UCLA. Surely that's enough competition for anyone without adding the Weak Sisters of the Poor down I-64.

You wrote: "Pitino at UL has actually brought excitement to a rivalry UK was dominating and that had become very stale."

If "stale" means UK continues to dominate the rivalry, then give me "stale" every day of week and twice on Sunday. I have no interest in the game even being competitve, much less exciting.

You wrote: That it is "absurd" to opine that Pitino left UK because of "greed...".
You wrote: "He was already wealthy."

Pitino is on record as saying he saw the Boston situation as a chance to secure his families financial security...forever. You are right, he was already wealthy, so how much money does one guy need? I would be interested to know if towards the end of his tenure at Boston when he looked pale, and emaciated, if he thought the extra jingle in his pocket was worth the nightmare he lived through.

I think though, tha he left mostly because it was his dream to coach in the NBA, and he was presented with a plan in which he had total control. Surely, very tempting indeed. But of course, it was the "total control" that in the end, tightened the noose around his neck.

I don't blame Pitino for leaving UK, and there are many more who feel as I do. I do though have a real problem with him returning to coach UL. In case you haven't been paying attention, the UK/UL rivalry is one of the most heated and hate filled in all of sports. To expect UK fans to forgive and forget is to underestimate the passion said fans hold for the Program.

At the same time, I do not begrudge folks such as yourself who hold no ill will towards Pitino. It is certainly an issue that reasonable people can disagree. So I would appreciate it if you would keep your invectives to yourself. I'm not trying to persuade anyone on this issue, but if you feel the need to refer to me as "childish" and urge me to "move on" bring on the Atlas Van and sippy cup.

by Ken Howlett on Apr 5, 2008 9:07 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think ...
we will agree to disagree about this.  It is my considered opinion that the stronger Louisville is, the weaker Kentucky becomes.  It was that way in the early 1980's when Kentucky was on the wane and Louisville was on the rise.  That was the point at which the cry for Hall's job reached it's peak.  The same was true for Crum during the Pitino heyday.

There is nothing absurd about my comment that Pitino left for greed and glory.  I'm not casting aspersions on either motivation, particularly.  Every man has a right to his motivation, and I am not necessarily of the opinion that either greed or glory are bad things, but neither are they particularly noble.  Pitino flirted with the NBA every single year he was her except his first one or two.  He couldn't wait for a job to come along in the NBA where he could make himself a coaching legend, and parlay that into tens of millions.

I agree with you that Rick Pitino resurrected our program in record time from probation, and I will always admire him for that.  But that does not change the fact that Pitino used Kentucky like a hammer to get what he wanted in the NBA.  I personally believe it was his intention from about his fifth year on, and maybe before.  That speculation does not change the good things he did here, nor taint his tenure.  But it doesn't make me feel good about how he treated us in the end.

And I agree that hating and despising Pitino is not really all that mature, but never fear, I have neither in my heart for him.  But I see Louisville as the opposition, and as long as Pitino coaches the opposition, he is one of them.  So my appreciation is necessarily, and I believe quite reasonably, mitigated and on hold.

The Big Blue Nation is not of one opinion on Rick Pitino.  Many, like me, oppose him strongly because of his implicit abandonment of UK by coaching it's most bitter rival.  It does not undo the good he did, but as long as he is in that position, he will hear no cheers from me.

by Truzenzuzex on Apr 6, 2008 5:43 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He will hear cheers from me..
mutliple final fours..   two national championships to his credit.. taking UK from shame to glory..  he has EARNED our praise.  

by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 6, 2008 8:21 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He's Right Down I-64
Why not root for his team then?

by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 6, 2008 8:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Two NC?
I only remember 1996. When was the 2nd NC???

by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 6, 2008 9:05 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

1998
lol, you think Tubby get all that credit?  Come on..  comparing Tubby to Pitino is like comparing a Nissan Maxima to a Lotus...  both nice cars but one is not in the league of another.

It is ok 40yroldcatfan..   Tubby is a good coach.  You cannot have all those 20 win seasons and not be a good coach.  But, you cannot be a great coach and be incapable of taking YOUR team (at least one in 20 years of coaching) to a Final Four.

by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 7, 2008 8:38 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Agree strong UL = bad
I agree that a strong UofL is bad for UK - good evidence posted by Tru above.

Louisville just needs to be good enough to win a few games in the Big East, but bad enough that they only beat Kentucky AT MOST every 1 out of 6 years or so.  Otherwise, it can affect recruiting.  Consider a player the caliber of Rajon Rondo, who actually wanted to go to Louisville to play for Pitino (but Pitino was after Sebastian Telfair, so UK got a Chris Lofton-style Rondo commit, heh).  Even for those of who you don't like Rondo's UK career, you have to admit he's doing pretty well for himself in the NBA.  Rondo or no, UK needs to have first dibs on all the top recruits in the state (and out of the state, for that matter!).

I believe Pitino has remorse and for that I don't dislike him anymore.  However, I'm still not for a strong UofL at all.  Our ACC home-and-home series is tough enough (Maryland when they were great, and now UNC) We also have enough strong teams to play in UNC, Duke, UCLA, and Kansas who are good every year, hopefully we only meet one of them in the tournament.  We don't need any more tough teams to play, we need to be the toughest so we can get back to our rightful place of dominating the SEC and ultimately hang up some NCAA banners.

And forget parity, give me blowout city any day of the week.

by EEWildcat on Apr 6, 2008 9:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

U of L Was Strong In 1970's And 1980's
So was UK. Like Duke and UNC, when both are strong, it is better for both.

http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/Statistics/careersteals.html Double Rondo's 2-year numbers for 4-year comparison. RR would be #1 in Steals.

http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/Statistics/careerassists.html Again double 2-year to get 4-year comparison. RR would be #2 in Assists.

by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 6, 2008 9:05 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Disagree
Strong UofL:
1970s & 1980s: 1 National Championship for UK, 0 (I think!) runners-up.

Weak UofL:
1990s: 2 national Championships, 1 runner-up.
(even though UofL beat UK in 1998, they didn't make the field of 64)

That's 2 times the National Championships in 1/2 the time, so 4x as successful.

I'm not willing to look up any Duke and UNC records. 8')

I agree about Rondo, he was a great talent, helped the team, and put up some great numbers.  It's a shame the 2005-2006 (and 2007 for those of you who think Rondo might have stayed another year if he was happier) teams underachieved.

by EEWildcat on Apr 6, 2008 9:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

humor.
"I'm not willing to look up any Duke and UNC records".....HA!  

You are funny today EEWildcat.  

This thread could sure use a dash of humor.  : )

by BigSkyCat on Apr 6, 2008 9:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

UK In 1970's And 1980's
Top 5 program in 70's with 2 FF and 1 NC. Better than 60's.

Top 10 program in 80's with 1 FF but tailed off the latter half of 80's.

by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 7, 2008 6:57 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Pitino is a slick one...
and it's interesting that UK and UofL fans,supporters and other interested parties haven't fully grasped is his nature. He is like the piper leading the children away. Similar to a bacterial virus in that once he gets in you you can't help but pass him on to someone else. Like Bernake before him Coach P is a master of pr and of course really good at getting others to play that game we just love to spend hours watching.

Personally, I don't care if it's rec league kiddies tossing the roundball or a battle between the Chinese National Team and the Zimbabwe Heat (not a real team, but there should be one.)

Coach P knew that when his time at Boston was coming to a bad end no matter what kind of spin he put on it, he had to go somewhere where everyone would know his name. (sorry, bad Cheers & Boston reference) Voila! UofL has a new AD who is ready to lose their famous but recently unsuccessful coach. Being a new AD he was kinda insured against job loss, i.e. fans burning flags in effigy with the firing (release?) of Crum.

What better way to get instant name recognition than to go back to the state where his name means something. See, here's the bit where the psychology of PR comes in handy. It doesn't matter what emotion you arise from a populace necessarily, you just need to get them to feel strongly enough about something to ACT.

By going to Louisville Coach P has successfully enabled himself to stay a household commodity in the community he loves most. He managed to send a shiver down the spine of the entire Big Blue Nation and wake the Cardinal faithful from a long sleep like Snow White. Not only does Coach P get to coach basketball in the state where basketball is king but he also gets to dabble in his hobby, horeseracing.

You know he wasn't going to tell Tubby to take a hike and thanks for keeping his seat warm. Going to another school was never an option. He wouldn't get as much recognition or stay in the limelight as much as he did by coaching at Louisville. Jurich could also be mentioned as having a good idea what the move would do to the state and both teams.

I was saddened to see Pitino go, didn't understand why he wanted to go back to the NBA when his first go around sucked. Sure it was the Knicks but come-on, is the UK head coaching job too big for even HIS ego? If you love the game of basketball so much how could you leave a program that has such a passionate fanbase the state government shuts down if there is an "important game" on? How could you leave a program that you brought back to life and ?

I don't think he planned it that way, obviously he would've liked to have gotten a few NBA Championships before returning to the college game, maybe even an attaboy from Big Red. I seem to think it was a matter of timing and true PR genius at work.

Love him or hate him he knew what he was doing when he came back to Kentucky to coach Louisville. He's got his limelight. Or in this case ultravioletlight.

I just want UK to beat him everytime to remind him of the legacy he lost.

by bluecrip on Apr 5, 2008 7:38 PM EDT   0 recs

Pitino with the Knicks
Actually Pitino's stint with the Knicks was very successful.

The year before he took over they won only 24 games. Pitino's second year they won their division.

If my memory is correct, he left the Knicks because he did not get along with the GM.

by Ken Howlett on Apr 5, 2008 11:03 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

2 Stints With NY Knicks
Assistant coach for NYK in 1984 and 85.

Head coach there in 1988 and 89. Patrick Ewing in his prime. Kenny Walker, too.

90-82 those 2 seasons. Decent, not more.

by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 5, 2008 11:22 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Pitino/Knicks
He was 52-30 his second year. The most wins the Knicks had enjoyed since '72-'73.

A bit better than decent, don't you think?

by Ken Howlett on Apr 5, 2008 11:47 PM EDT